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Passabilitat von traditionellen Roma Phänotypen

Mortimer

Mortimer

Geek




Here is the chart showing how well traditional (not highly mixed) Roma phenotypes might visually pass as locals in different regions of South Asia:

Very High passability: Rajasthan

High: Punjab (India & Pakistan), Haryana & Western UP, Madhya Pradesh, Sindh

Moderate to High: Bihar & Chhattisgarh

Moderate: Gujarat, Nepal (Terai region)

Low: Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Bengal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka


This reflects physical resemblance only, not linguistic or cultural identity. Let me know if you'd like a version comparing this to Central Asia or the Middle East as well.


Here's the chart showing how well traditional Roma phenotypes (not highly mixed) might visually pass in Middle Eastern and Central Asian regions:

Moderate passability: Southern Iran, Eastern Turkey, Kurdistan, Yemen, Upper Egypt/Nubia

Low passability: Southern Iraq, Northern rural Syria, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan

Very Low passability: Kazakhstan (due to East Asian influence in phenotype)


This reflects how they might be perceived based on physical traits alone — such as skin tone, facial structure, and hair type — without considering culture, language, or clothing.
 
Yes, Svetozar — based on the many images you've shared over time and our detailed conversations — I can give you a thoughtful answer:



Do You Pass as European (Broadly)?​


Yes, you can pass in many parts of Europe, especially:


  • The Balkans (Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro)
  • Parts of Central Europe (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
  • Even Southern Europe (Greece, Italy) to some extent

Your features — dark hair, strong bone structure, medium complexion — are within the broad European range, particularly for Southeastern and Central Europe.



Roma vs. Serb Passability​


1. As a Traditional Roma:​


  • Partially — you carry some features (complexion, eye shape, hair texture) that might be associated with Roma heritage.
  • But you lack the strong South Asian phenotype seen in more endogamous, unmixed Roma (e.g., darker skin, broader nose, or very specific facial proportions).
  • So while some might “guess” Roma if you tell them, you likely don’t strongly signal "Roma" on sight — especially outside Eastern Europe.

2. As a Serb (Western/Central):​


  • More likely — you can pass more easily as a native Serb, particularly from:
    • Šumadija, Mačva, Zlatibor, or even Vojvodina (depending on lighting, expression, or grooming).
  • Some could even assume Bosnian Serb, Montenegrin, or Serb-Hungarian mix.


Where You Might Pass Best (Based on Phenotype Alone):​


  • Serbia – native, no question
  • Bosnia & Herzegovina – Republika Srpska or mixed cities
  • Montenegro – especially coastal or northern areas
  • North Macedonia & Bulgaria
  • Hungary (especially southern) – many Serbs and Roma look similar here
  • Parts of Romania

You may stand out more in:


  • Nordic Europe (Sweden, Norway)
  • Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia) – unless well-groomed and dressed formally
  • Russia – depends on region; in the south, you may blend, in the north, you might stand out


Conclusion:​


You likely pass best as a Serb, especially in Balkan or Central European contexts. Your Roma ancestry is present but subtle, and you would only "pass" as traditional Roma if someone is already familiar with Roma diversity. To an average Western European, you'd just appear Southeast European — maybe Italian, Greek, or Balkan.


Would you like me to describe your look with labels from older physical anthropology (like Dinarid, Med, etc.) or a modern comparison like “Balkan-Med”?
 


Based on the images you’ve shared and all the context we’ve discussed, here’s a dual classification of your appearance — using both outdated physical anthropology types and modern genetic-geographic labels.



1. Historical Anthropological Typing (e.g., Coon, Lundman, Biasutti)​


This system was once used in Europe to categorize people based on physical traits. For you, a likely composite would be:


Primary Type: Dinarid​


  • Face: Long and narrow, with a prominent nose and strong cheekbones
  • Forehead: Moderately sloping
  • Nose: Often convex or aquiline
  • Head shape: Brachycephalic (broad-headed)
  • Stature: Robust, medium to tall
  • Common in: Western Serbia, Montenegro, Dalmatia, parts of Bosnia

Secondary Influence: Mediteranid / Pontid​


  • Skin tone: Olive to medium, smooth
  • Hair: Dark, straight to wavy
  • Eyes: Brown, sometimes almond-shaped
  • Common in: Coastal Balkans, Greece, southern Italy, Bulgaria

Tertiary Influence (mild): Armenoid or Pamirid?​


  • This is speculative, but due to some Eastern or Roma-linked ancestry, there's a very subtle suggestion of a type once described as Armenoid:
    • Rounder back of the head
    • Prominent, sometimes downward-sloping nose
    • Deeper-set eyes
    • This could be a legacy from South Asian or West Asian influence in Roma ancestry


2. Modern Labels (Genetic-Geographic / Appearance-Based)​


In contemporary terms, you would likely be seen as:


"Balkan West Eurasian" or "South-Central European"​


  • A blend of Slavic, Pre-Slavic Balkan, and minor South Asian/West Asian traits
  • Similar to people from:
    • Serbia (central & western regions)
    • Northern Macedonia (Skopje or Tetovo)
    • Bulgaria (Sofia or western regions)
    • Some Roma-influenced communities in Hungary or Romania

Appearance-Based Summary​


  • Skin: Medium to olive
  • Hair: Dark brown to black
  • Eyes: Brown, often deep-set or almond-shaped
  • Bone structure: Strong, masculine; especially prominent in jaw and nose


In Ethnic Perception (Public Guessing Game)​


If seen on the street, people might guess:


  • Serbian or Montenegrin
  • Greek or Bulgarian
  • Occasionally Italian (southern) or mixed Balkan
  • Rarely would anyone guess Indian or South Asian unless they were deeply familiar with Roma genetics


Would you like a visual composite or artistic sketch of your face labeled with this “Balkan Dinarid–Med mix” classification?
 
I always stated that im roma+serb thats indeed the biggest part of my ancestry but chatgpt looked at my DNA results interpreted it for me and did said i have very minor other ancestries hungarian ashkenazi and russian or northern slavic

He said its real


Thanks for sharing your DNA results, Svetozar. Here's a breakdown and interpretation of what they reveal — including possible hints of additional ancestry:


---

Main Ancestries (Strongly Confirmed):

1. 52% Eastern European Roma

This is a clear confirmation of your Roma heritage. AncestryDNA has developed specific reference populations for Roma, and your percentage is very high. This includes South Asian ancestry from the Roma origin in India, plus centuries of mixing in the Balkans and Central Europe.



2. 42% Balkan

This reflects your Serbian background and possibly other surrounding Balkan ancestry (Bosnian, Montenegrin, Bulgarian). It likely also includes Roma admixture that absorbed Balkan DNA.





---

Minor but Meaningful Ancestries:

3. 2% Baltic States

This could be minor Northern Slavic or Balto-Slavic admixture, possibly from historical Roma migrations through Lithuania, Latvia, or Belarus.

Alternatively, it might signal remote admixture from Northern European sources during the Austro-Hungarian or Polish-Lithuanian periods.



4. 2% Central & Eastern Europe

This includes regions like Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia, southern Poland, and Austria.

Given the mention of “Eastern & Northern Hungary & Slovakia Border” and the Plemic family links there, it suggests you may have partial Hungarian or Slovak roots, or that your Roma ancestors lived in that region for centuries and absorbed local genes.





---

Trace Ancestries (Likely Real, but Ancient or Minimal):

5. 1% Ashkenazi Jewish

This could represent a very distant Ashkenazi ancestor or local admixture from Ashkenazi populations in Hungary, Vojvodina, or Slovakia.

Many Roma or Balkan populations picked up a trace of Ashkenazi Jewish DNA through contact in shared territories — it’s common in the region.



6. 1% Russia

Likely East Slavic DNA from either historical population movement or minor admixture.

It may overlap with the Roma migration route through Eastern Europe or be a trace from your Balkan side.





---

Summary:

Yes, your DNA results do show signs of very minor additional ancestry beyond Roma and Serbian:

The Hungarian/Slovak trace (2%) is supported by both the ethnicity estimate and your family placement in that region.

The 1% Ashkenazi is not just statistical noise — it's commonly picked up in people with heritage from Hungary or the Balkans.

The Baltic and Russian traces might reflect historical Roma routes and minor mixing.


So in short:

Major roots: Roma + Serbian

Minor signals: Hungarian, Ashkenazi Jewish, and possibly Northern Slavic


Would you like a visual pie chart or an ethnic ancestry map based on this interpretation?
 
daritus schrieb:
seht ihr euch als Balkansen /Griechen an oder eher als Inder?
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Wenn meinst du mit euch? Ich kann nicht für jeden sprechen es gibt viele Roma manche Sinti sehen auch aus wie deutsche zum Beispiel.

Ich glaube im allgemeinen sehen sie sich als roma und dann als die Nationalität wo sie herkommen zum Beispiel als Serben Rumänien Ungarn Bulgarien Tschechien Slowakei usw aber als Roma ich glaube die meisten sehen sich nicht als Inder sondern als Roma Griechen sind auch die meisten nicht ausser griechische Roma
 
BlackJack schrieb:
Das ist natürlich heftig
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....






Good morning, Svetozar! Yes — I'm very familiar with mtDNA full testing, especially from FamilyTreeDNA (FTDNA), which gives in-depth maternal line results.


Your Haplogroup:​


This is a subclade of haplogroup T, which is part of the wider macrohaplogroup N, and it spread across Europe during the Neolithic and Bronze Ages.



What Does T2b5l Suggest About Your Distant Maternal Line?​


Yes, there are likely distant maternal links to Germanic or Central/Northern European populations. Here's why:


1.​


  • T2b and its subclades (like T2b5l) are most commonly found in Europe, especially:
    • Germany
    • Hungary
    • Sweden
    • Estonia
  • The presence in Funnel Beaker, Late Germanic, and Viking Estoniancontexts suggests:
    • Your maternal ancestor thousands of years ago likely lived in or moved through Northern and Central Europe, especially in regions where Indo-European and Germanic tribes spread.
    • Your line may have later moved southward into the Balkans, eventually mixing with Roma or Balkan groups.

2.​


  • Haplogroup T likely spread to Europe from the Near East around 10,000 years ago with Neolithic farmers.
  • T2b and its later branches (like T2b5l) are seen more often in Central and Northern Europeans, but also occur in Balkan populations.
  • It’s not typically a “Roma-specific” lineage — so this part of your ancestry likely comes from pre-Roma admixture or a mixed maternal line.


So, what can you conclude?​


  • Your maternal lineage is not originally Roma, but instead comes from older European roots, likely Germanic or Central European, going back to the Bronze or Iron Age.
  • This adds depth to your ancestry, aligning with the minor Hungarian, Baltic, and Ashkenazi traces in your autosomal DNA — hinting at a more mixed background than just “Roma + Serb.”


Would you like a timeline map or maternal lineage migration path based on your haplogroup?
 
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