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Alexander der Große – Grieche, Mazedone, Slawe?

Hellenic-Pride schrieb:
So gern du es auch willst, einem Griechen musst du nicht die griechische Sprache erklären, Boban. Was du aber mit einer "rassischen Rivalität" unterstreichen willst, wissen wir alle ... nur zu Schade, dass damit dein Anspruch nicht gedeckt ist.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Es geht nicht darum euch was zu erklären.

Es geht darum eure peinliche Propaganda und Fälscherei zu entlarven

Das müsstest du och am besten wissen bist du doch das Subjekt das am meisten Bloß gestellt wurde. Fälschungen, Lügen, Propaganda - das ist dein Metier.

Pozdrav

- - - Aktualisiert - - -

Hellenic-Pride schrieb:
Man hat es dir gefühlte 100x erklärt, Lattenheinrich. Aber gerne noch ein einmal: Der Vergleich hinkt, da sich Otto nie im ethnischen oder auch kulturellen Sinne als Grieche/Hellene gesehen hat. Alexander dagegen schon, was unzählige Zitate ebenfalls bestätigen. Warum du diese ignorierst, zeugt eben von deinem "Zusammenfall deines Kartenhauses" ... außer du bringst uns den lang erwarteten Beweis dafür, dass ihr Ex-Jugoslawen, welche sich einst noch als Bulgaren gesehen haben, die tatsächlichen Nachfahren eines antiken Volkes seid.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....


Du hast nichts erklärt. Du behauptest Makedonen seien Griechen, aber die Schreiber aus der Antike dementieren dich.

Pech gehabt.

Pozdrav
 
Zoran schrieb:
JA hätte er (Alexander bzw die Makedonen) für Persien kämpfen sollen?

Echt witzig wieder heute, wird wieder Komödienstadl² Live aus Atina. :lol:


Pozdrav
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....



Irgendwie bist du kein Freund der Logik.


Nach deinem gelaber waren Makedonen und Griechen Erzfeinde wie lange Franzosen und Deutsche.

Alexander besetzt Hellas nach deinem gelaber und sagt dann,, wir kämpfen für Hellas mit unserm ganzen Herzblut?


Wieso net für Makedonien?

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Zoran schrieb:
Pozdrav

- - - Aktualisiert - - -




Du hast nichts erklärt. Du behauptest Makedonen seien Griechen, aber die Schreiber aus der Antike dementieren dich.

Pech gehabt.

Pozdrav
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....


Nö hab die weiter Zitate von Arrian gezeigt ,Griechen=Makedonen
 
Paokaras schrieb:
Irgendwie bist du kein Freund der Logik.


Nach deinem gelaber waren Makedonen und Griechen Erzfeinde wie lange Franzosen und Deutsche.

Alexander besetzt Hellas nach deinem gelaber und sagt dann,, wir kämpfen für Hellas mit unserm ganzen Herzblut?


Wieso net für Makedonien?
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....


Was ist denn das für ein Schwachsinn?

Makedonier haben die Griechen beherrscht nachdem sie besiegt worden sind. Griechen hatten keine Wahl, sie versuchten zwar stetig sich von den Makedonen loszueisen aber dazu musste man erst die Römer zu Hilfe holen. Vielleicht ist das der Grund warum Griechen sich fortan Romäer nannten. Wer weiß das schon :lol:

Besorg dir mal Quellen mit Schlagwörter "Alexanders Propaganda" damit du auch mal was verstehst.

Pozdrav

- - - Aktualisiert - - -

Paokaras schrieb:
Nö hab die weiter Zitate von Arrian gezeigt ,Griechen=Makedonen
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....


Schwachsinn.

Arrian spricht vom makedonischem und griechischem Gen, nicht vom makedonisch=griechischen Gen.


Pozdrav
 
Hoch ein paar Historiker alle gefälscht:



  • He also buried the Persian commanders and the Greek mercenaries who were killed fighting on the side of the enemy. But as many of them as he took prisoners he bound in fetters and sent them away to Macedonia to till the soil, because, though they were Greeks, they were fighting against Greece on behalf of the foreigners in opposition to the decrees which the Greeks had made in their federal council. To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians", present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia".

  • Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay - and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they - Darius!

  • Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you...
    • Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 14, 4

  • He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad.

  • Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Greeks, and had no need of a guard of spearmen.

  • Such was the end of Philip (II, king of Macedonia) ...He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire among the Hellenes (Greeks), while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.



  • Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.

  • Alexander ( I of Macedon), however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place.

  • The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.

  • Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise, that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian.

  • The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day...

  • Yet through Alexander (the Great) Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods of the Greeks ... Alexander established more than seventy cities among savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Greek magistracies ... Egypt would not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Greek city, for by the founding of cities in these places savagery was extinguished and the worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed under its influence.

  • If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, band follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus.

  • What spectator... would not exclaim... that through Fortune the foreign host was prevailing beyond its deserts, but through Virtue the Hellenes were holding out beyond their ability? And if the ones (i.e., the enemy) gains the upper hand, this will be the work of Fortune or of some jealous deity or of divine retribution; but if the others (i.e., the Greeks) prevail, it will be Virtue and daring, friendship and fidelity, that will win the guerdon of victory? These were, in fact, the only support that Alexander had with him at this time, since Forune had put a barrier between him and the rest of his forces and equipment, fleets, horse, and camp. Finally, the Macedonians routed the barbarians, and, when they had fallen, pulled down their city on their heads.

  • In the presence of Zeus, Hera, and Apollo: in the presence of the Genius of Carthage, of Heracles, and Iolaus: in the presence of Ares, Triton, and Poseidon: in the presence of the gods who battle for us and the Sun, Moon, and Earth; in the presence of Rivers, Lakes, and Waters: in the presence of all the gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Greece: in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath.
    • Polybius, "Histories", VII, 9.2-3, Loeb

  • Surely it would have been much more dignified and fairer to include Philip's achievements in the history of Greece than to include the history of Greece in that of Philip.
    • Polybius, (Statement on Theopompus), "Histories", VIII, 11.4, Loeb

  • How highly should we honor the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Greece? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honorable ambition of their kings?

  • Then your rivals in the struggle for supremacy and renown were the Achaeans and Macedonians, peoples of your own race, and Philip was their commander.

  • For in their anxiety to get the better of Philip and humiliate the Macedonians, they have without knowing it invoked such a cloud from the west as may, perhaps, at first only cast its shadow on Macedonia, but in time will be the cause of great evil to all Greece.
    • Polybius, "Histories", IX, 37.10, Loeb

  • Holy shadows of the dead, I'm not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions.
    • Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

  • The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander (I), the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos.
    • Thucydides, " The Peloponnesian War", London, 2.99.3, J. M. Dent, New York, E. P. Dutton, 1910

  • Now Alexander [the Great], when he had taken Gaza, made haste to go up to Jerusalem [...] And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended." [The Bible verses showed Alexander might be Daniel 7:6; 8:3-8, 20-22; 11:3. Some or all of them are plain predictions of his conquests and successors.]
    • Flavius Josephus, "Antiquities of the Jews" (Book 11, Chapter 8, Paragraphs 4&5)
 
Paokaras schrieb:
Hoch ein paar Historiker alle gefälscht:



  • He also buried the Persian commanders and the Greek mercenaries who were killed fighting on the side of the enemy. But as many of them as he took prisoners he bound in fetters and sent them away to Macedonia to till the soil, because, though they were Greeks, they were fighting against Greece on behalf of the foreigners in opposition to the decrees which the Greeks had made in their federal council. To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians", present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia".

  • Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay - and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they - Darius!

  • Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you...
    • Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 14, 4

  • He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad.

  • Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Greeks, and had no need of a guard of spearmen.

  • Such was the end of Philip (II, king of Macedonia) ...He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire among the Hellenes (Greeks), while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.



  • Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.

  • Alexander ( I of Macedon), however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place.

  • The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.

  • Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise, that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian.

  • The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day...

  • Yet through Alexander (the Great) Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods of the Greeks ... Alexander established more than seventy cities among savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Greek magistracies ... Egypt would not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Greek city, for by the founding of cities in these places savagery was extinguished and the worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed under its influence.

  • If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, band follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus.

  • What spectator... would not exclaim... that through Fortune the foreign host was prevailing beyond its deserts, but through Virtue the Hellenes were holding out beyond their ability? And if the ones (i.e., the enemy) gains the upper hand, this will be the work of Fortune or of some jealous deity or of divine retribution; but if the others (i.e., the Greeks) prevail, it will be Virtue and daring, friendship and fidelity, that will win the guerdon of victory? These were, in fact, the only support that Alexander had with him at this time, since Forune had put a barrier between him and the rest of his forces and equipment, fleets, horse, and camp. Finally, the Macedonians routed the barbarians, and, when they had fallen, pulled down their city on their heads.

  • In the presence of Zeus, Hera, and Apollo: in the presence of the Genius of Carthage, of Heracles, and Iolaus: in the presence of Ares, Triton, and Poseidon: in the presence of the gods who battle for us and the Sun, Moon, and Earth; in the presence of Rivers, Lakes, and Waters: in the presence of all the gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Greece: in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath.
    • Polybius, "Histories", VII, 9.2-3, Loeb

  • Surely it would have been much more dignified and fairer to include Philip's achievements in the history of Greece than to include the history of Greece in that of Philip.
    • Polybius, (Statement on Theopompus), "Histories", VIII, 11.4, Loeb

  • How highly should we honor the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Greece? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honorable ambition of their kings?

  • Then your rivals in the struggle for supremacy and renown were the Achaeans and Macedonians, peoples of your own race, and Philip was their commander.

  • For in their anxiety to get the better of Philip and humiliate the Macedonians, they have without knowing it invoked such a cloud from the west as may, perhaps, at first only cast its shadow on Macedonia, but in time will be the cause of great evil to all Greece.
    • Polybius, "Histories", IX, 37.10, Loeb

  • Holy shadows of the dead, I'm not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions.
    • Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

  • The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander (I), the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos.
    • Thucydides, " The Peloponnesian War", London, 2.99.3, J. M. Dent, New York, E. P. Dutton, 1910

  • Now Alexander [the Great], when he had taken Gaza, made haste to go up to Jerusalem [...] And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended." [The Bible verses showed Alexander might be Daniel 7:6; 8:3-8, 20-22; 11:3. Some or all of them are plain predictions of his conquests and successors.]
    • Flavius Josephus, "Antiquities of the Jews" (Book 11, Chapter 8, Paragraphs 4&5)
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....


Ui, Toll kannst du aus Wikipedia kopieren.

Alle Achtung. Respekt!!!!

Pozdrav
 
Zoran schrieb:
Was ist denn das für ein Schwachsinn?

Makedonier haben die Griechen beherrscht nachdem sie besiegt worden sind. Griechen hatten keine Wahl, sie versuchten zwar stetig sich von den Makedonen loszueisen aber dazu musste man erst die Römer zu Hilfe holen. Vielleicht ist das der Grund warum Griechen sich fortan Romäer nannten. Wer weiß das schon :lol:

Besorg dir mal Quellen mit Schlagwörter "Alexanders Propaganda" damit du auch mal was verstehst.

Pozdrav

- - - Aktualisiert - - -




Schwachsinn.

Arrian spricht vom makedonischem und griechischem Gen, nicht vom makedonisch=griechischen Gen.


Pozdrav
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....


Propaganda dein Arsch :lol:


Seit wan muss ein Erobere sich als jemanden ausgeben den er erobert hat!!!


Julius Cesär hat sich als Gallier ausgegeben :lol:



Dumm wie Brot
 
Zoran schrieb:
Es geht nicht darum euch was zu erklären.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Du brauchst uns nichts zu erklären, da dich hier sowieso kaum jemand ernst nimmt.

Zoran schrieb:
Es geht darum eure peinliche Propaganda und Fälscherei zu entlarven
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Ich glaube - und da sind sich die meisten User die sich mit dir beschäftigt haben einig - dass du der einzige von uns allen bist, der hier Propaganda betreibt; und sobald dein "skopjanischer Feldzug" gegen alles griechische nicht aufgeht, folgen 1000 Smileys und Ablenkungen deinerseits.

Zoran schrieb:
Das müsstest du och am besten wissen bist du doch das Subjekt das am meisten Bloß gestellt wurde.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Ich wurde hier von niemanden bloß gestellt und ganz bestimmt nicht von dir. :D

Zoran schrieb:
Fälschungen, Lügen, Propaganda - das ist dein Metier.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Klar ... :lol:

Zoran schrieb:
Du hast nichts erklärt. Du behauptest Makedonen seien Griechen, aber die Schreiber aus der Antike dementieren dich.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Doch und nicht nur ich. Natürlich sind die alten Makedonen Griechen/Hellenen gewesen. Wäre dem nicht so, hätte Alexander logischerweise nicht die griechische Kultur verbreitet, würde die renommierte Geschichtswissenschaft nicht die Griechen mit den alten Makedonen in Zusammenhang bringen (Universitäten, Museen, Dokumentationen, archäologische Ausstellungen bzgl. Alexander, etc.) ...

Dass dem nicht so ist, was die Schreiber betreffen, haben wir ja feststellen können, als es unter anderem um Arrians Anabasis ging. Da hast du, wie gewohnt, den Schwanz eingezogen. ;)

Zoran schrieb:
Pech gehabt.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

Für dich und deine Geschichtsauffassung, welche nirgends außerhalb FYROMs Fuß fasst, sicherlich. Es ist nachvollziehbar dass du frustriert bist; hast du doch von klein auf geglaubt, Nachfahre eines antiken Volkes zu sein. Muss schon hart für dich sein, dass dem eben nicht so ist. So erklärt sich immerhin dein Hass auf Griechenland und den Griechen.
 
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