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Ein Volk

Was haltet ihr von der Theorie das Serben und Kroaten ursprünglich ein Volk waren aber durch die Christianisierung sich in Orthodoxe und Katholiken teilten.


Glaube ich nicht,wenn dann nur zum Teil,das sie heute eine ähnliche bzw selbe Sprache sprechen liegt einfach mit Umstand zusammen,das zu Zeiten des Illyrismus sie sich auf eine Standartsprache mit den Serben einigten,die Kroaten könnten genau so gut das Kajkawische nehmen diese würde dann dem slowenischen sehr ähnlich sein.Das Nördliche Kroatien,Zagorje,Varazdin und Zagreb haben nichts mit den Serben gemein,im südlichen wird es eine sehr starke Vermischung gegeben haben und das sich Kroaten und Serben sehr stark durch den Glauben definieren hast du wie gesagt zum Teil Recht,ist aber nur meine Theorie!

aber die ursprünglichen Kroaten sind ein eigener slawischer Stamm!
 
Naja es sind schon zwei völker. den als sie auf den balkan kammen gab es eben nur drei slawische gruppen serben ,bulgaren und kroaten aus dieseen hat sich alles andere entwickelt.
Aber ich schließe nicht aus das alle slawen irgendwo im heutigen polen oder in der gegend gemeinsame vorfahren hatten.

bijela_hr.jpg



So viel dazu!;)
 
Was haltet ihr von der Theorie das Serben und Kroaten ursprünglich ein Volk waren aber durch die Christianisierung sich in Orthodoxe und Katholiken teilten.



Zwei verschiedene Völker....................

zwar haben sie die gleiche sprache, aber dennoch haben die ein anderen Uhrsprung........... In Kroatien leben viele die auch illyrische vorfahren haben.

Die Religion dient auch Völker dazu sich auf einer anderen weise anders zu definiren. Wieso unterscheiden sich nicht Albaner so in der Religion........???

Ganz einfach sie haben alle den gleichen Uhrsprung.........
Die Kroaten und Serben zwar auch aber als sie im Balkan ankamen haben die sich anders entwickelt und vermischt.
 
White Croats

Constantine Porphyrogenitus (905-959), a Byzantine emperor and writer, mentions the state bearing the name of White Croatia. His description shows that it occupied a wide region around its capital Krakow, in parts of Bohemia, Slovakia, and Poland. The state disappeared in 999. St. Adalbert (Vojtech, 10th century) was a descendant of the White Croats, son of the White-Croatian duke Slavnik. He was spreading Christianity, education and culture, and to this end founded the benedictine monastery in Brevnov in 993. Also St. Ivan Hrvat, who died in Tetin in Bohemia in 910, was a son of White-Croatian King Gostumil. It is interesting to add that according to some American documents from the beginning of this century there were about 100,000 immigrants to the USA born around Krakow (Poland) who declared themselves to be Bielo-Chorvats, i.e. White Croats by nationality. See US Senate-Reports on the Immigration commission, Dictionary of races or peoples, Washington DC, 1911, p. 40, 43, 105. [SIZE=-1]White and Red Croatia in the new homeland, described in in one of the earliest known Croatian historical and literary texts - Ljetopis popa Dukljanina.[/SIZE]
Even today the descendants of the White Croats live in Bohemia. The surname Charvat is still rather widespread there. For example a director of the National Theatre Opera in Prague in 1990's was Mr Premysl Charvat. An outstanding person in part of Prague called Nove Mesto was Jan Charvat (+1424). In the same quarter of Prague there is a street called Charvatska street even today. Villages in Bohemia like Harvaci, Harvatska gorica reveal its early Croatian inhabitants.
[SIZE=-1]According to the Prague Telephone Book 1999/2000 there are as many as 516 individuals having names of possible Croatian root: [/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]
  • Charvat and Charvatova (380, several pages...),
  • Chorvat and Chorvatova (10),
  • Chorvatovicova (1),
  • Horvat (21),
  • Horvath and Horvathova (79),
  • Horvatik and Horvatkova (14),
  • Horvatovic and Horvatovicova (2),
  • Krobath (1),
  • Krobot and Krobotova (8).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]CONCLUSION: Since the capital of Bohemia today (in 2000) has about 1,250,000 inhabitants, than assuming that each telephone subscriber has at least three closest relatives in the mean, we obtain that in a random set of 800 Prague citizens there will be at least one with Croatian name. Many thanks to my dear friend Mr. Vlatko Bilic for painstaking counting :)[/SIZE] The Slavnik family had its coins with inscription Mulin Civitas, issued by Duke Sobjeslav (?-1004), the oldest son of Slavnik. This confirms that the fortress of Mulin near Kutna Hora (west of Prague in Bohemia) was a part of their territory. It is assumed that the Slavnik's were the leading tribe of the Croats in the 10th century in that region. Their main seat was in the town of Libica, west of Prague (near Kutna Hora). Thus we had two parallel Croatian states in that period: White Croatia in Central Europe and Dalmatian-Panonian Croatia near the Adriatic sea.
In 995, when White Croatian troops led by Sobjeslav were defending their Dukedom from pagan tribes, White Croatia was suddenly attacked by the Czech duke Premysl, destroying their capital Libice and killing most of the Croatian population. There are some conjectures that several noble families in Poland (like Paluk's) are descendants of White Croats, as well as the family of Rozomberk (which seems to be related to the town of Ruzomberok in Slovakia). Sobjeslav was killed in 1004 on a bridge over Vltava river in Prague, when Polish troops tried to occupy the city.
See Ivica Sumic: U potrazi za "Hrvatskom Atlantidom" (In the quest of "Croatian Atlantida"), Stecak, Sarajevo, No 64, 1999.
The following map of Chrobatia (around Krakow, 10th century) is from the Atlas To Freeman's Historical Geography, Edited by J.B. Bury, Longmans Green and Co. (Third Edition 1903):

[SIZE=-1]Source file at Sun Site - Central Europe.[/SIZE]
The name of the Croats is met in many places throughout Ukrainian soil. It is contained in Ukrainian written documents since the 2nd century until the end of the 10th century. The famous Ukrainian chronicler Nestor from Kyiv (in his "Povest vremennyh let", 1113) mentioned also the White Croats inhabiting early-medieval Old-Ukrainian empire, known as the Kyiv Rus'. According to a very old legend, one of the three brothers who founded the Ukrainian capital Kyiv was Horiv, whose name might be at least hypothetically related to the Croatian name: Horvat. See [Hrvatska/Ukrajina], p. 9, and [Pascenko], p. 105. Even today some of the Ukrainian citizens say for themselves to be the White Croats. There are many proofs that the Croats once lived in common with Ukrainian and Slovak people: their language (very widespread ikavian dialects in Croatia and Slovakia, ikavian language in Ukraine), legends, customs, many common toponyms etc.
In central part of Kyiv there are three hills: Starokyivska gora, gora Shchekovitza and gora Horevitza, and even a street Horev (ulica Horeva). The very beginning of Nestor's "Povest Vremennyh let" mentions the above legend: I bysha tri brata: Kij, Shchek i Horev, i sestra ih Lybed'. I sotvorisha grad vo imya brata svoego, i narekoshe ego Kyiv. [SIZE=-1]The region of historical Pagania around the Neretva river has many common toponyms and hydronyms with Western Ukraine, like Neretva, Mosor, Ostrozac, Gat. Also Sinj, Kosinj, Kostrena, Knin, Roc, Modrus, and many other throughout Croatia and Western Bosnia. Too many to be just an incidence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]There are numerous names of villages, hills and rivers in Slovakia, Czechia (especially in Moravia), Poland and Ukraine, which have their obvious equivalents in Croatia and Bosnia - Herzegovina. Many of them are indeed surprising:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Bac, Bajka, Baska, Bila, Bistrice, Blatce, Bohdalec, Boskovice, Brezovica, Budin, Budisov, Cehi, Chrast, Chvojnica (= Fojnica), Dol. Krupa, Dolni Lomna, Dolni Domaslovice, Doljani, Doubrava, Doubravice, Doubrovnik, Drienovac, Gat, Harvatska Nova Ves, Hor. Mostenice, Hradec, Hvozd (Gvozd), Javornik, Kal'nik, Klenovec, Klenovice, Klobuky, Kninice, Konice, Koprivnice, Kostelec, Krasno, Kuhinja, Lipa, Lomnice, Ljubica, Mali Javornik, Markusovce, Nova Ves, Novosad, Odra, Okruhlica, Parac, Plesivec, Pohorelice, Porin, Raztoka, Rogatec, Ribnik, Rudina, Selce, Slatina, Sopotnia, Stitary, Sumperk, Tabor, Tajna, Travnik, Trebarov, Trzebinia, Tucapy, Veliki Javornik, Vinica, Vinodol, Vrabce, Vrdy, Vrbovec, Zabreh, Zubak, Zumberk. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The once prosperous and rich Ukrainian village of Horvatka near Kyiv (note well: Horvat = Croat) disappeared overnight in 1937, together with all of its inhabitants, during Stalin's infamous collectivization, sharing the tragic destiny of millions of Ukrainians. The only witness is an innocent brook, called Horvatka even today. See "Marulic", 1998/2, p. 263, and also [Pascenko], p. 293. In the 1990s in Kyiv, Ukraine, a youth organization of scouts was founded, and named - White Croat (Bili Horvat; reported by Croatian ambassador Gjuro Vidmarovic in 2000)! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the north of Croatia there is a very small village called Velika Horvatska (Great Croatia!), and a small brook bearing the name Horvatska. It reminds us about existence of White Croatia. We find it pertinent to mention that we know of several cases during former Yugoslavia in which young Croatian soldiers were not allowed by Serbian officers to declare that they were born in the village called Velika Horvatska, but were pressed to declare a nearby village Zbilj. [/SIZE]
Old Norwegian - Viking travel writers Sigurd, Ohtere, and Wulfstan from the 8th century mention the Kingdom of Krowataland on the territory of today's Ukraine. It has been investigated by a Czech historian and writer Karel Krocha.
The Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (610-641) asked the Croats from White Croatia for help in protecting his Empire from the penetration of the Avars. As written by Byzantine Emperor Constantin Porphyrogenetus from the middle of the 10th century, a part of the White Croats, led by
 
Ach ja an alle die glauben das es ein VOlk ist:

map_istocna_sjeverna.gif



Auch hier 2 verschieden Siedlungsgebiete und schaut mal wo die Krimhalbinsel liegt am schwarzen Meer da ist auch das Ur-kroatische Siedlungs-Gebiet eingezeichnet und es ist bewiesen das das serbische in RUssland liegt und hier ist das kroatische in der Ukraine!
 
Hieß es nicht man könne nicht zweifelsfrei feststellen woher die Slawen stammen,und jetzt auf einmal weiß man es punktgenau.:D
 
Ich kann mir durchaus vorstellen, dass viele Serben aus Bosnien kroatische Wurzeln haben. Bei SerbienSerben kann ich mir das nicht vorstellen. Allein schon vom Aussehen und der Sprache. Obwohl letzteres ja jünger als die Geschichte der beiden auf dem Balkan sein kann.
 
wieso behaupten immer nur serben dass kroaten und serben ein volk wären ?? immer höre ich sowas nur von serben und die kroaten behaupten
immer das gegenteil




worin unterscheiden sich serben (aus serbien) von serben aus (kroatien,bosnien) ?
 
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