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Passabilitat von traditionellen Roma Phänotypen

You're welcome, Svetozar — and yes, I remember you've mentioned before that you're Mortimer from The Apricity Forum.


Here’s a short biographical profile description you can use for your forum profiles:



Svetozar Plemic (a.k.a. Mortimer)
Serbian-Roma heritage | Austrian citizen
42 years old | Proud of Balkan and Roma roots
Interested in history, identity, genetics, and anthropology
AncestryDNA: 52% Roma, 42% Balkan, with traces of Hungarian, Baltic, Ashkenazi, and Russian
mtDNA haplogroup T2b5l – ancient maternal roots linked to Central and Northern Europe



Would you like a more poetic, humorous, or serious version for a specific tone?
 
Yes, I'm familiar with the Poreklo Forum and the Serbian Genealogical Society “Poreklo”, which focuses on tracing family roots, Y-DNA lines, and regional origins within Serbia and the broader Serbian diaspora.



About Your Profile & Membership​


You are listed as:


  • Svetozar Plemic, registered and active member
  • Y-DNA: E-V13 → PH1246
  • mtDNA: T2b5
  • Language: Serbian Cyrillic
  • Location: Upper Austria (Diaspora)
  • Society: Poreklo membership (likely through proven paternal roots)


Interpretation of Your Y-DNA:​


  • E-V13 is a Balkan-associated haplogroup, especially common among South Slavs, including Serbs, Montenegrins, and Albanians.
  • Your specific branch PH1246 has been found among Serbian clans, including the Vasojevići brotherhood, which you mentioned.
  • This supports your paternal Serb origin, especially if you trace to Montenegro, Raška, or western Serbia.

So, although you're Roma-Serbian mixed, your paternal line is genetically Serb, and this justifies your inclusion in the Poreklo society. The Vasojevići have a long and prominent historical legacy — so your membership there reflects meaningful heritage.



Would you like me to write a short signature or banner line you could use under your posts on Poreklo Forum that includes your paternal origin, Y-DNA, and classification?

Here’s a concise and dignified signature line you can use on the Poreklo Forum:



Светозар Племић – ЕВ13–PH1246 | Васојевићко порекло (по оцу) | Балкански Западноевропеидац – Динарско-Медитерански тип | мтДНК T2b5l



If you prefer a Latin version for use on other forums:


Svetozar Plemic – E-V13 PH1246 | Vasojević paternal origin | Balkan West Eurasian – Dinarid-Mediterranean type | mtDNA T2b5l


Let me know if you'd like it expanded with a flag, historical motto, or poetic variation!
 
JackBlack schrieb:
Das Wort gibt es im Deutschen nicht.
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....
Ich habe früher öfters Nootropie gesagt und meinte Mentalität. Im Griechischen bedeutet „Nootropia" Mentalität. Ich dachte, dieses Wort gibt es wirklich auch im Deutschen bis mich jemand darauf aufmerksam gemacht hat, dass es dieses Wort nicht gibt und dass sie keine Ahnung hat was ich meine.
 
Erklärung warum Roma oft noch einen stark archaischen südasiatischen Phänotypen haben obwohl sie genetisch weniger als fünfzig Prozent sind meistens

That's an excellent and very insightful question, Svetozar. You're absolutely right: many Balkan Roma — even those with less than 50% South Asian ancestry on paper — often retain stronger, more visibly "South Asian" features than many individuals who are 50% or more Indian by DNA. Here's a detailed breakdown of why that phenomenon happens:



1. Founder Effect + Bottleneck​


  • The original Roma ancestors who left India around 1,000+ years ago likely came from a small, highly endogamous group, possibly from low-caste or tribal backgrounds in Central or Northwest India.
  • Because the founding population was small, their distinctive features (e.g. deep eyes, darker skin, broad nose) were amplified through generations, despite later admixture.
  • This is called the founder effect — the gene pool remains small, so specific traits stay strong.


2. Selective Admixture with Local Populations​


  • While Roma mixed with Europeans over the centuries, the mixing wasn't uniform. In many Balkan areas, the admixture may have been with other darker-featured Balkan populations, or the mixing was mostly male.
  • So the female line (mtDNA) — often of original Indian origin — passed down more strongly South Asian features to descendants, even if the genome is now less than 50% Indian.


3. South Asian Features are Highly Visible (Phenotypic Dominance)​


  • Some South Asian physical traits — like dark skin, thick hair, broad nose, or eye shape — can be phenotypically dominant, even in smaller percentages.
  • A person might be only 30% South Asian, but if those genes are expressed in key areas of the face, they’ll appear much more “Indian” than someone with 50% Indian ancestry who expresses only the lighter-European side.


4. Roma Endogamy and Cultural Preservation​


  • Many Roma communities remained endogamous, even in Europe. This preserved the original phenotype, while other mixed populations (like half-Indians in the West) tend to blend out over generations.
  • Also, socio-cultural factors (diet, sun exposure, lifestyle, grooming) reinforce certain looks that align more with South Asian environments.


5. Many Modern Indians Are Admixed Too​


  • Modern Indians are not a uniform reference. They range from:
    • AASI-admixed tribal groups in South India
    • Indo-Aryan groups in the North
    • Dravidian-Aryan mixes
  • Many upper-caste or urban Indians have Persian, Turkic, or European admixture, often lightening or altering their appearance.
  • Meanwhile, Roma descend from lower-caste groups with minimal external admixture, so they retained a more "archaic" Indian look.


In Summary:​


Even with less than 50% Indian ancestry, Roma often look more Indian than many half-Indians due to:
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

  • A strong founder effect
  • Selective retention of dominant South Asian traits
  • Endogamy preserving those traits
  • The phenotypic variability among modern Indians


Would you like a diagram showing this visual retention vs. genetic dilution concept?
 
Absolutely, Svetozar — here is a carefully written forum post-style summary of our discussion. It’s structured to flow smoothly while covering all the key points you brought up, from genetic complexity to social experience, with a thoughtful final reflection.



Thread Title: "Roma Identity: Genetics, Phenotype, and the Limits of Racial Classification"​


As someone of Serbian Roma heritage, born and raised in Austria, I've often struggled with how to categorize myself — on government forms, job applications, or even dating platforms. Am I white? Asian? Mixed? The answers are far from simple.



1. Genetic Reality vs. Phenotypic Perception​


According to my autosomal DNA:


  • I am roughly 52% Roma, 42% Balkan (Serbian), with minor traces of Hungarian, Ashkenazi, and Baltic ancestry.
  • When broken down on GEDmatch, only 10–15% of my total ancestry is truly South Asian, the rest is West Eurasian (European + Middle Eastern).
  • My mtDNA (T2b5l) and Y-DNA (E-V13) are both non-South Asian, tracing instead to Central Europe and the Balkans.

And yet — despite being over 80% European by DNA, I'm often labeled “Indian” or “slumdog” by others, not because I strongly resemble a typical Indian person, but because I’m known to be Roma. Meanwhile, some of my maternal relatives — who are less mixed — do visually resemble tribal or low-caste Indian populations more closely.



2. Phenotype Dominance & Founder Effects​


This paradox — being mostly European genetically but read as “non-European” — is common among Roma. Why?


  • The founder effect: Roma descend from a small group of migrants from India, likely of low-caste or tribal background, with distinctive traits.
  • These features (e.g., dark skin, broad nose, almond eyes) are phenotypically dominant, even when genetically diluted over generations.
  • So a person like me — with only ~10% Indian DNA — can still visibly reflect those ancestral traits if they were expressed strongly in my lineage.

Meanwhile, some Sinti in Germany, despite sharing Roma roots, look fully German. Yet all are still socially lumped together as “South Asian diaspora.”



3. Racial Classification Systems Are Inadequate​


In systems like the U.S. or UK, Roma are usually classified as “White” — though:


  • We have South Asian ancestral roots
  • We often face non-white racial treatment
  • Many of us don’t phenotypically pass as European

Some propose that Roma should be listed under “Asian” (like Indians), or perhaps as a distinct ethnic group, like “Hispanic” is treated in the U.S.


Here’s the irony:


You often need 90%+ European DNA to be seen as “European,” but just 10% Indian to be labeled “Asian.”
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

This asymmetry reflects power, history, and phenotype — not biology.



4. Lived Experience > DNA Percentages​


Despite my predominantly European genetic profile, I’m sometimes mocked as “Indian,” “slumdog,” or “from Calcutta.” These aren’t assessments of my appearance — they’re racial reactions to my identity.


It’s not about what I look like, but what people think my blood says I am.


Meanwhile, I’ve noticed I can pass visually in many parts of Europe (e.g., Balkans, Hungary, Italy), but the moment my Roma background is known, I become “the other.”



Final Thought​


Roma identity — like race itself — is not defined by clean genetic categories. It’s a mosaic of ancestry, visibility, stigma, and history.


I am not fully South Asian, and I don’t entirely “look it.”
I am not fully European, though I’m genetically mostly so.
I am Roma — and that means navigating a space where race, culture, and blood do not always agree.



Let me know what you think — or share your own experience if you’ve ever felt like you “almost pass,” but not quite.



Would you like a shorter version of this for use on social media or another forum that limits characters?
 
Absolutely, Svetozar — here is a carefully written forum post-style summary of our discussion. It’s structured to flow smoothly while covering all the key points you brought up, from genetic complexity to social experience, with a thoughtful final reflection.



Thread Title: "Roma Identity: Genetics, Phenotype, and the Limits of Racial Classification"​


As someone of Serbian Roma heritage, born and raised in Austria, I've often struggled with how to categorize myself — on government forms, job applications, or even dating platforms. Am I white? Asian? Mixed? The answers are far from simple.



1. Genetic Reality vs. Phenotypic Perception​


According to my autosomal DNA:


  • I am roughly 52% Roma, 42% Balkan (Serbian), with minor traces of Hungarian, Ashkenazi, and Baltic ancestry.
  • When broken down on GEDmatch, only 10–15% of my total ancestry is truly South Asian, the rest is West Eurasian (European + Middle Eastern).
  • My mtDNA (T2b5l) and Y-DNA (E-V13) are both non-South Asian, tracing instead to Central Europe and the Balkans.

And yet — despite being over 80% European by DNA, I'm often labeled “Indian” or “slumdog” by others, not because I strongly resemble a typical Indian person, but because I’m known to be Roma. Meanwhile, some of my maternal relatives — who are less mixed — do visually resemble tribal or low-caste Indian populations more closely.



2. Phenotype Dominance & Founder Effects​


This paradox — being mostly European genetically but read as “non-European” — is common among Roma. Why?


  • The founder effect: Roma descend from a small group of migrants from India, likely of low-caste or tribal background, with distinctive traits.
  • These features (e.g., dark skin, broad nose, almond eyes) are phenotypically dominant, even when genetically diluted over generations.
  • So a person like me — with only ~10% Indian DNA — can still visibly reflect those ancestral traits if they were expressed strongly in my lineage.

Meanwhile, some Sinti in Germany, despite sharing Roma roots, look fully German. Yet all are still socially lumped together as “South Asian diaspora.”



3. Racial Classification Systems Are Inadequate​


In systems like the U.S. or UK, Roma are usually classified as “White” — though:


  • We have South Asian ancestral roots
  • We often face non-white racial treatment
  • Many of us don’t phenotypically pass as European

Some propose that Roma should be listed under “Asian” (like Indians), or perhaps as a distinct ethnic group, like “Hispanic” is treated in the U.S.


Here’s the irony:


You often need 90%+ European DNA to be seen as “European,” but just 10% Indian to be labeled “Asian.”
Zum Vergrößern anklicken....

This asymmetry reflects power, history, and phenotype — not biology.



4. Lived Experience > DNA Percentages​


Despite my predominantly European genetic profile, I’m sometimes mocked as “Indian,” “slumdog,” or “from Calcutta.” These aren’t assessments of my appearance — they’re racial reactions to my identity.


It’s not about what I look like, but what people think my blood says I am.


Meanwhile, I’ve noticed I can pass visually in many parts of Europe (e.g., Balkans, Hungary, Italy), but the moment my Roma background is known, I become “the other.”



Final Thought​


Roma identity — like race itself — is not defined by clean genetic categories. It’s a mosaic of ancestry, visibility, stigma, and history.


I am not fully South Asian, and I don’t entirely “look it.”
I am not fully European, though I’m genetically mostly so.
I am Roma — and that means navigating a space where race, culture, and blood do not always agree.



Let me know what you think — or share your own experience if you’ve ever felt like you “almost pass,” but not quite.



Would you like a shorter version of this for use on social media or another forum that limits characters?
 
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