Molossians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kingdoms of Greece - Epirus (Molossians)
Molossians
http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...=9780521070515
Cambridge University Press
A History of Macedonia
University of California Press
Archer Jones / The Art of War in the Western World
The University of Illinois Press
Soviel darüber was die akademische Welt darüber sagt.... ;-)
- - - Aktualisiert - - -
Eine Mischung waren sie alle mal, bei der Nähe zwischen den beiden Völkern auch kein Wunder. Aber sie sprachen nunmal Griechisch und pflegten eine griechische Kultur. Von daher kann man sie ganz klar nicht zum illiyrischen Kulturkreis zählen!
Nun, ich sehe, du hast nicht viel verstanden. Du redest/schreibst von einer Zeit, in der die Epiroten weitesgehend hellenisiert wurden. Ich sagte bereits, dass die hellenisierung der Epiroten zw. dem 6-4 Jhdt.v.Ch. ansetzte und ab dieser Zeit sie vermehrt als Hellenen aufgeführt werden. Das ist auch verständlich, wenn man bedenkt, dass sie an der "Grenze" zu den hellenischen Stämmen lebten und sie sich mit ihnen vermischten und mit der Zeit sogar assimilierten.
Wenn du schon mit englischsprachigen Quellen beginnen möchtest, kann ich dir davon auch so einige anbieten. Aus Gründen der Klarstellung muss man sagen, dass die Griechen nicht allen Epiroten eine griechische Identität zuschrieben sondern nur deren Elitee, während sie die Bevölkerung als Barbaren bezeichneten. Aber auch diese mythische Behauptung wurde von den Griechen selbst angegriffen. Für sie war Epirus ein fremdes Land, das ausserhalb der griechischen Welt lag. Sie bezeichneten seine Bewohner als Barbaren (weil ihre Sprache völlig unverständlich), welches sie auch von den übrigen Illyrern, Macedonen, Thrakern, Etrusskern behaupteten.
Aber lassen wir mal die Quellen sprechen:
The territory of Epirus was the mountainous coastal region of modern north-western Greece and southern Albania. To the north was Illyria and to the east Macedonia.
To the Greeks the Epirotes were barbarians, although their ancestry was Dorian. Epirus was a poor land, rich only in warriors. The dominant tribe of Epirus were the Molossians.
His Family
The only Epirotes whom the Greeks regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, royal house of the Molossians. Pyrrhus was a member of this family. The Aeacidae claimed descent from Achilles. Olympias, wife of Philip II of Macedon and mother of Alexander the Great, was an Aeacidae princess; making Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander. In 334BC, when Alexander the Great began his conquest of the Persian Empire, the King of Epirus, Alexander the Molossian (uncle of Pyrrhus), attempted to conquer southern Italy. In 331BC he died in battle against the Romans. He was succeeded by Aeacides, father of Pyrrhus, but in 317BC Aeacides was driven from Epirus by a rebellion2. After this Epirus became a tribal federation instead of a kingdom.
h2g2 - Pyrrhus the Eagle, King of Epirus: 319 - 272 BC
Von antiken Schreibern wurden sie als Barbaren bezeichnet; allem Anschein nach, wurde dieser Begriff nicht dazu benutzt, um die Epiroten rückständiger als die Griechen zu bezeichnen. Gemessen an ihrere Sprache, ihren Bräuchen, Tradition und Lebensweise (die sich komplett von den Griechen unterschied), bezeichneten sie antike Schreiber als "Barbaren":
Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1
Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians—Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes—Epeirotic tribes.
καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ὀνομάτων δὲ ἐνίων τὸ βάρβαρον ἐμφαίνεται, Κέκροψ καὶ Κόδρος καὶ Ἄικλος καὶ Κόθος καὶ Δρύμας καὶ Κρίνακος. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν· ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.
So ist die Behauptung einiger frühen griechischen Nationalisten (Megali Idea), dass das Wort "Barbare" Rückständigkeit bedeutete unhaltbar. Diese These wurde im 18 Jhdt unserer Zeitrechnung aufgeworfen, um Ansprüche über den ganzen Epirus zu werfen.
Robert Browning's Medieval and Modern Greek, 1983, S. 2, n. 7 "The language of the Epirotes is repeatedly described in antiquity as non-Greek (Thucydides 1.47, 1.51, 2.80, Strabo, 8.1.3). Yes the Epirotes were connected with the origin of various Greek communities. There may well have been an ethnic and linguistic mixture in Epirus, some tribes speaking Greek, others Illyrian or some other language (cf. Hammond (1967) 423; Katičić (1976) 120-7)"
"The Arrian passage reminds us of an important fact of Macedonia's location: its neighbours - Thracians, Paionians, Epirotes and Illyrians - were primarily non-urban peoples with more or less hellenized elites." - Graham Shipley's The Greek World after Alexander, 2000, S. 111
Michael Grant, Rachel Kitzinger, Civilization of the ancient Mediterranean: Greece and Rome: Volume 1, 1988, S. 203:
"On the other hand, Thucydides (1.47.3, 5o-3) and Strabo (7.7.1) call the Epirotes barbaroi: only two of Thucydides' (2.80) northern chieftains have Greek names and many Epirote tribes did not speak Greek (Strabo 7.7.1) and even enjoyed...
Ronald Edward Latham, In quest of civilization, Jarrolds limited, 1946, S. 247, chapter "Trying to be Greeks":
On the fringe of Hellas, and not yet fully accepted as Greeks even in name, lived the Epirotes and the Macedonians. Though these were being progressively Hellenized by contact with Greek colonies on the coast and their rulers claimed descent from legendary Greek heroes, the Greeks still regarded them, as the more civilized Chinese regarded the Ch'in,
From a classical Greek point of view, the northwest of Greece was inhabited by a bunch of barbarian tribes, in which the fifth-century sources are nor really interested. They contradict each other about which nations could be classified as western Greeks, Epirotes, or Illyrians. It does not really help us that the tribes did not leave behind written texts.
Several sanctuaries, like Dodona, appear to have been hellenized quite early, but the people of the northwest retained some archaic traits. Several tribes were led by kings, something that was very unusual in the Greek world. On the other hand, the nearby Macedonians shared some of these characteristics.
Pyrrhus of Epirus (1)
Alle diese charakeristischen Spezifika wurden auch von den Illyrern geteilt. Dies alles ergibt zumindest theoretisch einen Spielraum für den "ethnischen" Anschluss der Epiroten zu den Illyrern.
'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli. But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA' (Jaques 1995:80/81)
Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'
Nach einer frühen Quelle (Theopompus) lebten in Epirus vierzehn Stämme. Er selbst konnte diese nicht zuordnen, jedoch hat es die moderne Wissenschaft größtenteils geschaft, diese einzuordnen:
"In later times more than half of Aetolia ceased to be Grecian, and without doubt adopted the manners and language of the Illyrians, from which point the Athamanes, an Epirote and Illyrian nation, pressed into the south of Thessaly. "
The Historians' History of the World: Greece to the Peloponnesian war
Henry Smith Williams - 1904 - S. 111
Einige "Gelehrte" dachten, dass die Illyrer auch in Aetolien und Akarnanien präsent gewesen seien. Ihre Meinung stützten sie auf Thukidites Behaputung, welcher entlang Aetloiens ein großes nicht-Griechisches Element erkennt.
«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)
III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.
Die Barbaren, auf die sich Thukidites bezieht, sind unzweifelhaft die Illyrer:
Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…
The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, S. 412
Livius behauptet, dass die Aetolier keine echten Griechen gewesen seien:
This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)
Es scheint auch enige zuverlässige Beweise zu geben, die eines der großen Stämme des Epirus, die Chaoner, illyrischer Abstammung sind. Dies ist A.Toynbee aufgefallen:
[...]that the Khaones had been Illyrian-speakers originally, since the Name "Peukestos ist identical with that of the Apulian Peuketioi, while the Name 'Dexaroi' looks like a variante of the name 'Dessaretioi', wich was born by Illyrian people whose territory exteded from the shores of the Lake Okhrida (Lykhnidos) south-soth-westwards to the upper valley of the river Uzumi[...]
Arnold Joseph Toynbee, Some problems of the Greek history, Oxford University Press 1969, S.108
During the entire historical period Epirus was more Illyrian than Greek.
Library of Universal History: Ancient history, Israel Smith Clare, 1906, S. 706
"My own view — for what it is worth — is that of the three big Epirot tribes the Chaones were definitely non-Greek (their name appears again in the form Chones among the Iapygians of Apulia who appear to have been allied to the Illyrians "
Epirus; a study in Greek constitutional development, Baron Geoffrey Neale Cross Cross of Chelsea - 1932, S. 2
Es erscheint mir überflüssig es nochmal zu erwähnen, dass fast alle antiken und modernen geographischen Beschreibungen Epirus von Griechenland unterschieden. Allgemein wurde angenommen, dass Ambrachien das Eingangstor zu Griechenland war und die Linie bis zum Fluss Peneios den nördlichsten Teil Griechenlands markierte:
Sie haben keine Berechtigung Anhänge anzusehen. Anhänge sind ausgeblendet.
Sie haben keine Berechtigung Anhänge anzusehen. Anhänge sind ausgeblendet.
Es gibt auch einige andere Elemente auf die higewiesen werden muss. Es ist selbst der N.G.L Hammond (welches die Epiroten als Griechen betrachtet) aufgefallen:
Known in the ‘Iliad’ only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.
Oxford Classical Dictionary about Epirus
Epirus was an ancient region of Greece, located in what is now Albania and northwestern Greece, with Illyria to the north, the Pindus mountains to the east, and the Gulf of Ambracia (near Preveza) to the south. The region was barbarous in early Greek times and famous primarily for the oracle at Dodona (in southern Epirus) with its sacred oak tree and cult of Zeus. The oracle was much consulted throughout ancient times. The region became Hellenized through contact with Corcyra (Korfu) and Ambracia, but it did not become important until Alexander, king of Molossia (in Epirus) and brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedonia, unified the Epirotes. Alexander invaded Italy in 333 B.C. He conquered much of southern Italy, but was finally defeated and killed in 330. When Pyrrhus (319–272) ascended the throne, Epirus was dependent on Macedonia. He made his country independent and increased its territory at Macedonia's expense. He too invaded Italy brilliantly but unsuccessfully. His failure weakened the kingdom, which fell c.232. Epirus was subsequently drawn into the Roman-Macedonian wars, and in 167 the Romans sacked the country and enslaved 150,000 Epirotes. For centuries thereafter, Epirus remained under Roman (and later Byzantine) rule. In 1081 it was conquered by the Norman crusader Robert Guiscard. When the Fourth Crusade captured Constantinople, the Byzantines established (1204) an independent despotate of Epirus. It survived as a vassal state of the Byzantine Empire until conquered by the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century.
Charles W. Fornara, Academic American encyclopedia, Volume 7, Grolier, 1997:
Die griechischen Kolonien etablierten sich überwiegend in den südlichen Ecken des Epirus, während sich der Rest an den übrigen Küstengebieten verbreitet und damit das Binnenland unberührt ließ:
Sie haben keine Berechtigung Anhänge anzusehen. Anhänge sind ausgeblendet.
Sie haben keine Berechtigung Anhänge anzusehen. Anhänge sind ausgeblendet.
Es stellt sich also die Frage, wieso gründeten die Griechen Kolonien in Epirus, wenn es doch ihr Land gewesen ist? Ein Überblick auf die griechischen Kolonien:
Sie haben keine Berechtigung Anhänge anzusehen. Anhänge sind ausgeblendet.
Hellas: the Ancient Greek World circa 550 BC.
Credit: Willliam R. Shepherd, 1926 Historical Atlas
So aber jetzt ist mal Schluss mit Fundstellen, sonst platz das BF aus allen Nähten. Ich könnte dir noch dreimal so viel Material bieten, aber das sollte für dich und diejenigen, die glauben, dass die Epiroten Griechen gewesen seien, reichen. Ich sage es mal vorsichtig: in Griechenland ist die Propaganda der "Megali Idea" noch nicht verblasst, daher glauben einige Griechen tatsächlich an Märchen der griechischen Wiedergeburt. Was genau jetzt in Mazedonien (FYROM) passiert, passierte vor gut über einem Jahrhundert in Griechenland, daher ist es für micht als nicht-Griechen verständlich, dass ihr an alle "Griechischen Mythen" glaubt; ist ja auch nicht anders in Mazedonien heutzutage.
PS: ich hatte dir ja versprochen, dass ich dir unzählige Quellen bieten kann, die das Gegenteil deiner Behauptungen beweisen werden und nun hast du sie.
