Origin of Serbs

[Robert]

Hab erst gedacht, es handelt sich um einen guten Dokumentarfilm. Dabei ist das einfach nur ein simples Video mit serben-feindlichen Absichten.
Der Ersteller hat sich ein paar Infos aus dem Internet zusammengewürfelt und meint, er sei ernst zu nehmender Historiker.

Okay,die Bilder aus dem Video hätte er weglassen müssen.
Aber was ist daran serben-feindlich wenn man über eure Geschichte diskutiert?
Ich habe die Serben hier nicht beleidigt und habe es auch nicht vor,bloß interessiere ich mich woher die serben kommen.

DA sieht man wie weit man für das Herz Kosovo gereist ist.^^

 

[Robert]

Bevor du dir Gedanken über die serbische Geschichte und den Ursprung dieses Volkes machst solltest du lieber deine Illyrer These überarbeiten.

Selbst tappt ihr im Dunkel aber versucht krampfhaft im Kleinkindformat zu provozieren.

interessant und amüsant zugleich...

Hab ich.
Kosovo je srce Afghanistan?
Eigentlich müsstet ihr Kosovo anerkennen,euer Vaterland hat es auch.(afghanistan)

 

[Fan Noli]

Also, ich sag das jetzt echt ungern, aber höchstwahrscheinlich stammen alle Europäer aus dem Kaukasus, und davor aus dem Gebiet des heutigen Iran. Deshalb immer noch bestehende Verwandtschaft aller europäischen Sprachen mit dem iranischen (Brodara, Brat, Bruder, Brother, frere etc.- indogermanische Sprachfamilie. Das albanische gehört dazu.)

Serboi ist ein slawisches Wort für Stamm. Wenn irgendwo "Srbi" "Serboi" "Sierb" etc. erwähnt werden, dann heißt das in erster Linie slawisch sprechende Stämme. Insofern auch unlogisch, warum Serben hätten slawisiergt werden sollen- bevor sie slawisch sprachen, können sie so garnicht sich selbst bezeichnet haben.

Und was genau haben Tschetniks damit zu tun?

Tschetniks:

Taliban:

Siehst du nicht ne gewisse Ähnlichkeit? Ich finde der ganz oben Rechts von den Talibans sieht son bisschen aus wie Draza Mihajlovic.^^

 

[Beogradjanin]

Hab ich.
Kosovo je srce Afghanistan?
Eigentlich müsstet ihr Kosovo anerkennen,euer Vaterland hat es auch.(afghanistan)

Nun verstehe ich warum ich diesen Mann so sehr verehre

YouTube - Ahmad Shah Masoud


Danke für das Öffnen meiner Augen. Ein Vorfahre

 

[USER01]

Aber was ist daran serben-feindlich wenn man über eure Geschichte diskutiert?

Dir geht es doch nur darum, dass Kosovo den Albanern gehört und die Serben barbarische Einwanderer aus dem Kaukausus sind, balblabla....

Also ob du dich wirklich für Geschichte interessierst.

 

[Idemo]

Ich glaube daran, dass Russen die Vorfahren der Serben sind und Serben aus Russland kommen.

Falsch

Sind die dunklen oder "asiatischen" serben die echten serben?
Wurden sie nur Slawisiert in "White Serbia"?
Das würde auch manch asiatisch aussehenden Serben erklären oder nunmal den Tadic Typ.

Serben sind nicht dunkel, genauso wenig wie ihr Albaner. Natürlich gibt es dunklere, aber diese haben a) phönizische Vorfahren und damit Gene oder b) türkisch-anatolische.
Die frühen Indogermanen im heutigen Mittleren Osten waren selbst nicht dunkel, sondern blond und blauäugig. Durch die natürliche Auslese wurden sie dunkler, wie heute.

Hab ich.
Kosovo je srce Afghanistan?
Eigentlich müsstet ihr Kosovo anerkennen,euer Vaterland hat es auch.(afghanistan)

Cool story.
Es sind nicht nur Serben aus diesen Gebieten gekommen, sondern es gibt genauso illyrische Serben, thrakische Serben usw.
PS: Zu der Zeit gab es kein Afghanistan!

[/IMG]


Siehst du nicht ne gewisse Ähnlichkeit? Ich finde der ganz oben Rechts von den Talibans sieht son bisschen aus wie Draza Mihajlovic.^^

Und du siehst aus wie ein Gnom, finde ich.

[smilie=to funny.gi:

 

[Robert]

Schottland heisst auf Gälisch "Alba"... sind die Albaner jetzt aus Schottland? :laughing5:

albanisch: die Weiße / Reine" (lateinisch)
gälisch : Alba war auch der gälische Name für Schottland.


Albanien hies früher Arberia.
Wir Albaner nennen unser Land nicht Albanien,sondern Shqiperia.

Anstatt mir vorzuwerfen das ich lüge,solltet ihr lieber eure Geschichte forschen und von diesem "wir waren immer hier,gottes ausserwähltes volk" trip runter.

Ihr kommt aus dem Afghanistan und fertig!

The Iranian theory of the origin of Serb people


"Serbi" located near the mouth of the Volga, based on Greek literary sources, in a map printed in London, ca 1770


The original Serboi were probably Sarmatian (Iranian) tribe, who lived in Eastern Europe (Sarmatia Asiatica), to the north of the Caucasus. The earliest historical records about these Sarmatian Serbs dates from the 1st century, in the works of the historian Tacitus (ca. 50 AD) and geographer Pliny (Plinius) (69-75 AD).

In the fourth century, these Sarmatian Serbs, together with Huns and Alans, moved to Central Europe, and were found dwelling near the Elbe, in a region designated as White Serbia, in what is now Saxony (eastern Germany) and western Poland. The Sarmatian Serbs, it is argued, intermarried with the indigenous Slavs of the region, adopted their language, and transferred their name to the Slavs. Since the white colour was designation for the west, name White Serbia actually could mean 'Western Serbia'.

Byzantine sources report that part of the Serbs (already a Slavic people by that time) then migrated southward in the seventh century and eventually settled in the lands that now make up southern Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, and Herzegovina. In this region, Serbs mixed with other Slavic tribes (which settled there in the sixth century) and with descendants of indigenous peoples of the Balkans.

Rival chiefs, or župani, vied for control of the Serbs for five centuries after the migration. Župan Vlastimir formed a Serbian principality under the Byzantines around 850, and the Serbs soon converted to Christianity. The Serbs had two political centers in the eleventh century: Zeta, in the mountains of present-day Montenegro, and Raška, located in modern southwestern Serbia.

Another part of the Serbs did not migrate southwards, but remained in the Elbe region. Descendants of these Serbs are the present day Lusatian Serbs/Sorbs, who still live in the Lusatia (Lužica, Lausitz) region of eastern Germany.

It is possible that the proto-Serbs in Sarmatia were similar to other Sarmatian/Iranian peoples on the northern Caucasus, such as the Alans, and spoke an Indo-European Iranian language similar to present-day Ossetian. At some point in the history of the Serbs, this Old Serb language stood side by side with the Slavic language in White Serbia (mentioned by the Byzantine emperor, Constantine Porphyrogenitus), and likely even in the first 300 years leading up to the formation of the Serb state in the Balkans in the 9th century. Even to this day, the Serbian language has at least a third as many words in its vocabulary than other Slavic languages. This is because of the influence of Old Serb and Illyrian as well as Turkish on the Slavic language spoken by the Serbs today.


One of the possible routes of the dispersal of the word "Serb". Note the similarities to the Croatian dispersal paths


What was the origin of the Sarmatian Serbs? Since the modern Ossetian language derived from ancient Sarmatian, we can search for the origin of Sarmatians if we compare relationships between languages of Iranian stock. The Ossetian language is a member of Eastern Iranian branch of Iranian languages, along with Pashtun, Yaghnobi and languages of the Pamir. The original homeland of the Sarmatians was probably in the region where these eastern Iranian languages are spoken today, somewhere between Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Pakistan.

The Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos, in his Book Of Ceremonies, calls the Croats and Serbs "Krevatas and Sarban"[citation needed], who were located between Alania and Tsanaria. Ṣārbān is also the name of a Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan, who are believed to be - at least in part - of Scythian descent.

Today it is suggested that the modern Serbs and Croats were Slavs living in modern Poland who assimilated the upper-class of the migrating Sarmatian tribes, who subsequently lent their names (Hrvat/Croat and Srb/Serb). Early in Polish history, the Polish nobility claimed to be direct descendants of the historic Sarmatian people. White Serbia and White Croatia, the original homelands of the Serb and Croat peoples before their migration to the Balkans, were located, respectively, in the territories of modern Poland, Bohemia, and eastern Germany (see Sorbs). This suggests an immediate link between the two Sarmatian-origin theories, but fails to provide a confirmation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorie...n_of_the_Serbs

 

[Pejan]

Gibt eine Menge Theorien dazu.

 

[Robert]

Alarodian theory

Some theories dismisses the Iranian theory because it is based solely on the fact that the area where the Serboi ethnonym is first mentioned (near the Sea of Azov) was home to the Iranian Sarmatians, and this led historians to falsely jump to the conclusion that the Serboi themselves were also Iranian. Mandić notes that Pliny himself does not state that the Serboi are of Iranian stock. If the Serbs were an Indo-Iranian people, Pliny probably would have said so. Furthermore, the non-Slavic substrate in modern Serbian is not Iranian.

In the Balkans during Roman rule, there was a city called Gordoserbon, which was assumed to derive from "city of the Serbs", gord being the Slavic word for city. However, it seems unlikely the Latin-speaking Romans would use the Slavic word for city to name one of their cities. Mandić proposes that Gordoserbon actually gets its name from the city of Gordium, the capital of Phrygia, which he claims is the ancient homeland of the Serbs. Gordium was situated near the ancient Lydian city of Sardis. Sardis was the capital of Lydia, an ancient empire located in present day Turkey. The Lydians spoke an Anatolian language.

The Alarodian languages include two long extinct languages, the Hurrian language and the Urartian language. The Hurrian language is believed to have had a strong influence on some of the Anatolian languages, notably the Hittite language, and it is believed that Hurrians were actually not indigenous there, but were new arrivals who assimilated an earlier people who called themselves the Subar-tu. The language of these Subar-tu, whose name is not recorded, is called Subarian by linguists today, and it is believed that there was a Subarian substratum in the Hurrian language. Sumerian records mention the Subartu. Much later, Persian records mention the Sabarda, and the ancient Greek historian Herodotus mentions the Sabir in the same area, although it is not clear what, if any, connection the Sabir/Sabarda have to the Subar-tu, or if the similar-sounding names are just coincidental. According to Mandić, the Serbs get their name from those ancient Subartu.



Traces and possible migrations of Serbs


Serb lands in the 9th century, mostly according to De Administrando Imperio


The Serbs were mentioned as Serboi by Pliny the Younger in his Geographica in the first century AD (69-75) as living on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. In the 5th century, Herodotus writes in his Persian Wars that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. In the fourth century the Carpathians are mentioned as Montes Serrorum (Serb mountains?) by the Roman emperor Licinius.

In the Caucasus, the homeland of the Sarmatian Serbs, they left their traces around the river Volga (Araxes in Greek). In modern Georgian, that river is called "Rashki". This name was used by Balkan Serbs as a name for their first state and is found wherever the name Serb is found in clusters indicating settlements. It is often used to designate hydronyms and likely meant 'river' or 'water' in Old Serb.

The Serbs possibly migrated in two directions from the Caucasus, northwest and northeast. Those who went northwest became overlords of the Slavs. There they established a mighty empire and became slavicized. Konstantine Porfirogenitus called this "White Serbia". Their descendants are known as Lusatian Serbs today and despite Germanization, a few thousand still remain on the territory of former East Germany. These we can also call 'White Serbs'.

There is a theory that the other branch of Sarmatian Serbs maybe moved northeast to the southern base of the Urals, and settled there for a time. We can call them 'Volga Serbs'. They possibly moved eastwards, deep into Siberia, leaving traces in the names towns along the coast of the Sea of Japan. They faded out with the onslaught from the Mongols. These we can call 'Siberian Serbs'. It is even possible that Siberia was named after this Old Serb tribe.

The White Serbs were probably completely Slavicized by the 6th century. Their Slavicized descendants are today's Lusatian Sorbs. One branch of these White Serbs have left White Serbia, and according to Porfirogenitus, came to the Balkans (7th century), invited by Heracleus, defeated the Avars and were given Macedonia to inhabit. There they took the already settled Slavs (who began arriving in the 5th and 6th centuries) under their control and mixed with them to form the modern Serb nation.

These Slavs, who came before the Serbs, had already assimilated the Illyrians, who were an Indo-European people. Many historians agree that the old Serbs were not Slavs, but a non-Slavic caste that ruled over the Slavs, though the Serbs who entered the Balkans in the 7th century, were mainly Slavs who had adopted the Serbian name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorie...n_of_the_Serbs

 

[Robert]

Gibt eine Menge Theorien dazu.

Aber alle führen sie nach Iran,Afghanistan,Kaukasus,Pakistan


Relation with Sorbs


While Ukrainians and krajischniks (their names coming from Slavic word for "borderland") or Slovaks and Slovenes (obvious variations of "Slavs") need not be related, Serbs and Sorbs may well be. Some have taken this to the extreme, creating theories that link Serbs with Sarmatians, Sirmium, Serbona, Siberia and so on. Such theories do, however, tend to represent something of a fringe view. The obvious similarities in their names leads some to conclude that Serbs and Sorbs are related peoples. Indeed, in the Serbian language Sorbs are called Lužički Srbi (Serbs of Lusatia) some historians call Sorbs White Serbs (if dichotomy exists Serbs are called "Red Serbs"; during The Great Migration Croats had a similar white-red dichotomy).

Exactly what the relations are between Serbs and Sorbs is not certain:

1. Some believe that Serbs came to the Balkans from Sorbia.
2. Some believe that Serbs came to the Balkans and Sorbs to Sorbia from a joint ancient fatherland. Where this fatherland might be is also uncertain.
3. Some believe that Serbs and Sorbs were one people at sometime but had separated before they moved to Serbia/Sorbia.
4. If we accept the claim that all Slavs have called themselves Serbs, then Serbs and Sorbs may not have anything more in common than any other two Slavic peoples.

Regardless of which is correct, the Serbs and Sorbs of today are very different peoples, with different customs, traditions and religions.



Possible connection with names of Sarmatians and Sabars

Some historians suggest the connection between the name of Serbs and names of Sarmatians and Sabars, though these theories are controversial.



Name of Sarmatians

Some suggest that the name "Serb" is derived from the ancient homeland of Serbs, Sarmatia, an ancient country between the Vistula River and the Caspian Sea, occupied by the Sarmatians [Lat. Sarmatae] from the 3d cent. B.C. through to the 2d cent. A.D. The term is vague and is also used to refer to the territory along the Danube and across the Carpathians where the Sarmatians were later driven by the Huns. The Sarmatians, who until c.200 B.C. lived East of the Don River, spoke an Iranian language and were a nomadic pastoral people related to the Scythians (see Scythia), whom they displaced in the Don region. The main divisions were the Rhoxolani, the Iazyges, and the Alans or Alani. They came into conflict with the Romans but later allied themselves with Rome, acting as buffers against the Germans. They were scattered or assimilated with the Germans by the 3d cent. A.D.

The common Indo-European phonetic mutation possible allowed -m > -mb > -b from Sarmoi > Serboi. The name of Sarmatians may be derived from PIE Root / lemma: ker-6 and k̂er- : 'dark colour; dirt, etc'. ahd. horo, Gen. horawes, mhd. hor, hurwe `ordure, smut' (*kr̥-u-); ags. horh, Gen. horwes, ahd. horg `dirty, filthy' (*kr̥-k-u̯-o); aisl. horr m. ` nasal mucus, snot, smut'; ags. hrot m. ` snot ', ahd. hroz ds., asächs. hrottag `snotty'; ahd. ruoz, rouz, mhd. ruoz, ruost, asächs. hrot `smut'; ags. hrum m. `smut', asächs. hrum, mhd. PN Rum-olt;

Maybe Sarmoi > Serboi, Srb from lit. sarma `gray, white weasel' [common PIE b > w mutation]. Both root names Hrv (Croat) and Srb (Serb) are interchangeable: s > h, b > v phonetic mutations. Srb (Serb) could be the origin of the latter Hrv (Croat).

lit. šir̃vas `gray, greyish-blue' (*k̂r̥-u̯o-s), šir̃mas ds. (*k̂r̥-mo-s), lett. sirms `gray' (compare ai. śyā-má- `black, dark' besides śyā-vá- ds.); lit. šir̃vis `hare'; in addition lit. šarmà f. ` hoarfrost', lett. sarma, serma ds., lit. šarmuõ, šermuõ `ermine' ahd. harmo, ven.-illyr. carmō); šarmuonỹs m. `weasel', with ablaut ostlit. širmuonė̃lis ds., lett. sermulis m. `ermine'; The Indo-European root/lemma Root / lemma: ker-6 and k̂er- : 'dark colour; dirt, etc' could be a collective name for Sarmatea 'dark people'.

The origin of the name Sarmat could be also an Indo-European interpretation of Sabar (Sabat) common PIE b > mb > m phonetic mutation].

Serbs and Croats would retain their sumptuous Iranian names. Bosnia was populated by an Illyrian tribe called Besoi. Montenegro would be called by Serbs as Crna Gora 'black mountain'.

The origin of the name Serb from an Indo-European root seems most probable. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in the Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues, but close to Iranian.

Both names Serboi (Serb) and Hrvat (Croat) seem to have originated in ancient Iran. Even today, there is a Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan named Sarbans. They could be ancestors of the old Sarmatian Serbs.

Most probably, the origin of Serbs and Croats is Indo-European. Although they adopted the language of the Slavs and mixed with them, they preserved their original Iranian names. Franks, a Germanic tribe who had conquered Gaul also lost its ancient language against a numerically superior native population.



Name of Sabar

Some suggest that the names of the Turkic Asian tribes Sabar and Kavar (*Havar) - Avar derived from the same root [common shift b > v, also allophones s/ h]. Thus, Sabars and Avars could be also descendants of Iranian Serbs (*Sabar) and Croats (Hrvat).

The remnant of Sabar, Avar excellent horsemanship in Turkish language was stamped in the cognate: tr. süvari ' cavalier, cavalry, cavalryman, chevalier, mounted troops, man'.

In the mid 5th C., Priskos Rhetor was the first to deal with the Sabar tribe which existed in the Western Siberian region. This supports the theory of the Sabar origin from the Balkhash region which is further supported by Chinese records concerning the related Hua tribes. According to Priscos's account, the Avar-Huns forced the Sabirs out of this land and over the Volga around 461-463CE because "a fog rose from the sea scaring people" and this was followed by countless "vultures descending upon the people". Then in 550, Zakharias Rhetor the church historian mentioned an "Avar" community in the west. Also in the mid 6th century, Menandros wrote about Avars. At the same time Procopius made a distinction in his History of the Wars, Books I and II, between White Huns and European Huns which Simokattes in the early half of the 7thC. defines as the real- and pseudo- avars respectively.

Based upon Simokattes's and other information, the Avars who entered Europe are thought to have been a combination of a Uyghur people called Hund and (because of the anthropological evidence as well as etymology on Avar Khagaan names like Bayan meaning "prosperous" in Mongol but meaning female in most western Altaic tongues) a Mongolian people called Var who united around Balk sometime between 410-470CE.

It has been determined through the unorganized information in various foreign resources that the Sabar Turkish community had played an important role in the Western Siberia and the northern region of the Caucasus in the 5th-6th centuries BC. This Turkish community were named as Sabar, Sabir, and Savir in the Byzantine resources and as Savır, Sabr, S(a)bir, Sibir, etc. in the Armenian, Syrian Christian, and Islamic resources.

There are allegations, which state that the Sabar people were of Slav or Mongolian or Finno-Ugrian origin. Recently, it has been suggested that they were Turks in origin in respect of the names that they hold and the historical and cultural characteristics. As a result of the labial attraction in various languages, the word of Sabar has been observed in various forms.

However, it is not very likely that the name of the Sabars come from the names of Sarbans or Serbs, which have Indo-European roots. The word of Sabar can be identified with Turkish language, and it was formulated as the addition of the suffix of +ar to the verb of "sab+ar" (=sap-ar= sapmak/ violate, deviate) (Some other examples are: Khazar, Bulgar, Kabar, etc). It has the meaning of "deviationist, defector, uncontrolled, free" and it is in compliance with the naming procedures among the Turks. Furthermore, the personal names pertaining to Sabar people are also Turkish. Balak, İlig-er, Bo-arık =Buğ-arık, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorie...n_of_the_Serbs